[EP.10]Mastering Your Biohacker’s Dashboard: How To Track Your Hacks Like a Pro

Track your hacks like a pro_YT

Dr. Joel Rosen:
Welcome to the age-reversing blueprint podcast where we discuss tools and tips to help you reverse your age naturally.

David Korsunsky:
Let’s take a few of some of the more interesting ones that I’m working on right now. Okay, which would be hyperbaric oxygen, infrared sauna, cold plunge PEMF just down the street from my house, I can go in there and I pay 200 bucks a month.

And they got everything I want unlimited. H BOD cold plunges. So I go in there, I do my 30 minutes in the sauna. I do five minutes in the cold water and I do a P E and F. I will see my aura HRV is close to double on those nights. Those technologies were not accessible to us the masses just a couple of years ago. There’s all these recovery lounges popping up.

And here’s why I like these places. We’re in such a hyperstimulated world. We work ourselves like crazy. These are dedicated spaces. It’s like the spa. But with all these new health optimization technologies. So inside one of these recovery lounges, I’m going this afternoon it’s Friday. I’ve been busting ass all week. I blocked two hours on my calendar to go and do recovery work. I’m gonna go to two sessions Am I to two plunges of contrast therapy, but I’m creating space in my life. to specifically go and work on recovering my body

Dr. Joel Rosen:
right everyone, welcome back to another edition with my new guest Dave Korsunsky. He is the founder and CEO of Heads Up Health. He has a digital health analytics company based in Scottsdale Arizona, and avid health and Susie’s himself, David. He makes everyone’s life easier and helps them to control their health through effective data tracking. Before founding heads up, David worked at Cloud Physics as a data analyst company collecting and analyzing a bit of what the ADB David billion 80 billion 80 billion data points per day.

He also spent seven years at V malware in director-level leadership roles where he built partnerships with the world’s largest software companies, including Oracle, IBM, SAP, epic Cerner, and more. David holds a Bachelor of Science degree in mathematics, a Master of Business Administration, and a Master of Science, and he is in the emerging field of neuroscience and based leadership. So David, thank you so much for being here. Thanks,

David Korsunsky:
brother. It’s good to reconnect with you. We just hung out a couple of weeks ago in Miami. And here we are again. Yeah,

Dr. Joel Rosen:
it’s weird to read the Bible and read it as David. I only know Dave.

David Korsunsky:
Well, you don’t even call me that. You call me the names of hockey players from the 70s to the 80s. That’s right. We have

Dr. Joel Rosen:
a little running joke on us Canadians, you know, the one with the obscure hockey players. So yeah, it was nice to reconnect and I did enjoy it wasn’t just blowing smoke up your skirt. I enjoyed your conversate you presented at the Biohacking Conference, which was entitled The Biohackers Dashboard, how to track your, your your hacks, I’ve asked you if we can expand that and not just the biohackers dashboard, how to track your hacks but how to track your five hacks. So why don’t we just kind of get into a brief overview of I know we had talked before how you got heads up health company to get into existence in the first place.

David Korsunsky:
Yeah, well, I was living in Silicon Valley at the time and working for a tech company out there and this was like, the early days of biohacking. So 2010 and 2011 None of this stuff was on anyone’s radar screen except for a very obscure group of people doing at that time what was called Quantified Self. Now we call it biohacking. But it was the same thing. I got into that community and realized that it was incredibly powerful. However, there were no accessible ways for people to figure out if their health was improving or not. So like there were all these cool things. You could try different diets, different exercise regimens, different supplements, different things to try to move the needle. But how do you know if it worked or not?

And some of this stuff, you’re spending a lot of money on it. You’re spending a lot of money on nutrition and the gym, and supplementation and all these things to try to be, quote unquote healthier. So I saw that, despite all the amazing technology coming on the market, and all of the amazing new ways that we had available to us to improve our health, like, I don’t know, infrared sauna, for example, I needed to, to measure what was working, because what works for me is not necessarily going to work for you.

And so, one therapy that works for a certain individual doesn’t work for the next. So the only way to know for yourself is to test if it works. So that was kind of the origin story for heads up. I’m like, Hey, there’s all this cool stuff out there. There’s all this data, and it sucks. There’s no way to just I just want to see all my numbers on one screen. These are the 10 or 15 numbers that I care about my blood pressure, my HRV, etc. I just need them on one screen. That was it. And I didn’t see anybody providing that to people who were trying to improve their health. And that’s why we started the company.

Dr. Joel Rosen:
Oh, that’s awesome. And as far as the how far how long ago was that now, Dave?

David Korsunsky:
Well, the idea came to me in 2011, I didn’t start developing it at that time, and I didn’t know how to start a company. Right? Hey, you get an idea. Right? It was it was a bad idea for a software program. How do you even start took me like two or three years of just asking around, hey, I got this idea for this new app. How do you even start? There’s no, there’s no instruction manual to figure out. So I had the idea in 2011, but we did not start writing code until 2016.

Dr. Joel Rosen:
Gotcha. And since then, I’m like, What I’m interested in alongside the biohackers dashboard and the evolution, you know, the iterations and what you’ve learned in the process of building this company and determining who’s your target market? And what do they want to know, even with that idea? So maybe let’s go through that evolution to how you came up with the biohackers dashboard.

David Korsunsky:
Do you mean, the presentation?

Dr. Joel Rosen:
That was so you know, initially, I guess, how much it’s evolved from cutting away the debris and pruning the bonsai tree? And what may kind of learn along the way?

David Korsunsky:
Yeah, well, what I presented at the conference a couple of weeks ago was seven years of building this company, and working with 10s of 1000s of people tracking their house, on our system, giving us feedback, telling us what they like telling us what they don’t like, punching us in the face when things don’t work as well as it should. So that was all that then for the last four or five years, we’ve been doing the same thing with practitioners like yourself, putting them through the system, what features are they using?

What are they not using? What do they need in there to make this more usable, even before I was in the biohacking world for five or six years, even before I had a company in the space? So that what I presented a couple of weeks ago was closer to 12 years of living and breathing, health optimization. Whatever biohacking Quantified Self, whatever set of words you slap on it was 12 years in the making.

And just if I could sum it up quickly, I would say a few things were my main takeaways. One is that every person has a unique equation. So that’s why the quantification becomes so important. It starts with genetics, environment, lifestyle, culture, society, community, everything. So every single person is a different equation.

And therefore, you don’t have one prescription that works for everybody. So that’s why measurement becomes very important. So that’s the first thing is that we have to approach it all differently. The second thing is that what you’re measuring is constantly evolving. So I used to be big into the keto diet five years ago, and I was tracking my macronutrients protein, fat carbs, I was tracking ketone levels, I was into that, right? Then my understanding and my knowledge of health evolved, and I listen to shows like yours. I listen to other shows, the science evolves, and the information evolves.

Okay, now I’m focusing on my heart rate variability. We didn’t even have ways to measure that five years ago, as consumers, right, the ordering didn’t exist. You know what I mean? So like, now I can measure things that there was no continuous glucose monitor, you know, 10 years ago. So like, now you can measure things you couldn’t even measure before. So the second key takeaway is that that as your health evolves, as you age, as you learn more as you get wiser, what you’re measuring will also change so that that whole process evolves.

And then I guess, the last thing I would say is that it’s hard. And it requires persistence, and perseverance, and, and commitment, and you’re gonna get frustrated, and you’re gonna feel defeated. And then the next day, you’re going to be on top of the world. So you know, the last piece of it is just to approach it with with open mindset, and a mindset of humility, and being able to just step back once in a while and not take yourself too seriously.

So I guess the third part would just be making sure that you’re taking care of yourself mentally, psycho spiritually, as well, you know, this, this, we’re so hyper bombarded with information, some of it really helpful, like these amazing podcasts, but some of it really, that intentionally is designed with fear. And, so I would say the last piece of it is just to keep an open mindset. And to really just take care of yourself, mentally, spiritually, there’s a million bio hacks out there a trillion a billion, right? But if your inner if your inner self is not at peace, then none of it matters. You know, so focusing on mindset, I think is another piece of it. Yeah, and

Dr. Joel Rosen:
that’s hard to operationalize. Right. I mean, how do you? Yeah,

David Korsunsky:
you’re working with the mind. Right? The spirit, it’s like, holy, that gets deep, real fast. Yeah. And,

Dr. Joel Rosen:
you know, you have a couple of really important points I wanted to talk about as far as changing up your importance on the keto diet. And, and, and tracking those stats, maybe explained from it, whether it’s a personal thing, or was because what you’ve seen with your practitioners, but maybe explain what goes down that a little bit why that changed for you?

David Korsunsky:
Well, I would say that it’s still a part of my life. So. So before understanding what the keto diet was, I knew how to move off the standard American diet. And I knew enough to start getting off of a lot of sugar and processed foods. So I was on more what you’d call a Paleolithic diet. You know, at that time, Paleo was the cool diet, Rob Wolf’s book, you know what I mean? Paleo was the shit. I was doing that. But when, when I started to learn the keto diet, that was the first way of eating that forced me to pay attention to blood sugar.

Because even on these these paleo templates, you were still eating foods that could generate a high glycemic load keto, you had to test your blood sugar and keep it nice and low, otherwise, your ketones were not going to pop. So it wasn’t until I was forced to start measuring blood sugar and ketones. That’s when I understood the difference between putting your body into a fat-burning state versus a glucose-burning state. So it forced me to learn how to understand blood sugar and blood ketones. Those are things I can never unlearn. So even though I’m not measuring ketones and blood sugar anymore, it’s now just infused as part of my way of living. Because I’ve learned enough that I don’t need to test that so much anymore. The only time I’ll pull out the ketone meter is when I’m doing a fast, and that’s just more for my intellectual curiosity. So I don’t necessarily need to be in a ketogenic state anymore. I believe that that can be very therapeutic in some conditions.

And it can work in certain endurance sports, or it works well if you have insulin resistance, or PCOS, or these other things, none of which I have. So it’s not just that I don’t measure it anymore. It’s like I’ve already learned enough that I don’t need to measure it anymore. But like when I do my 72-hour fasts, I try to do those every few months. It’s cool because you can watch your blood sugar coming down, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, and then you watch your ketones come up, and eventually there’s a point where they crossover and your ketones have completely taken over. As the fuel system, my blood sugar will be like 60. There’s none. Right? And my ketones will be at four or five millimeters. So now I just do it to see the crossover, but I guess I’ve internalized enough about it that I don’t need to measure it anymore. Well,

Dr. Joel Rosen:
I mean, thank you for sharing. I think that is somewhat the hidden goal. All of the paradox of your software right is tracked. All the useful stats or biomarkers that give you insight on your journey and if you’re improving on whatnot, but also ultimately Know yourself, and so that the more you know yourself, the more you don’t need the stats as much unless you want to keep it honest, you know, I remember talking to Dorian, your friends with Dorian from Quito Mojo. And they were talking a while back about how, you know, our goal is to get you to use it less and less than less because you know yourself more and more and more.

And ultimately, as you evolve, and as new information comes down the pike, you put more emphasis in you fill in the Shades of Grey, that you may not have some awareness about. And that’s a good transition into a question I want to ask you what came on my radar recently, is something called the Randle cycle. I don’t know if you’re familiar with that. But the Randle cycle is a theory proposed by Dr. Randall, of course.

And it the theory is that your cells will burn the fuel that it’s given. So if you give it carbs, it will burn carbs, if you give it fats will burn fats. However, if you give too much of either, it sort of stays in a metabolic purgatory, if you will. Or if there’s too much fat to have to process, any extra glucose is not going to be processed. And that ends up resulting in insulin resistance.

And we have the ability as children to be able to switch back and forth, you know, you have a kid who has a lot of energy, they eat lots of sugary foods and or they want that, and then they get really tired, but then they recover very fast. But with adults, we don’t have that ability to Once we stop eating the fat, if we’re insulin resistant, we have stress and cortisol and polyunsaturated fats, and cytokines and so forth, to be able to turn that off right away, and then just go back to sugar burning again.

And the theory is, is that in this, it’s sort of knocking down sacred cows in terms of, there’s not a problem with burning glucose, it’s a problem of burning glucose when there’s excess lipolysis going on because that person has this extra weight of fat on their body. They so which is a permanent drip of fat into the fuel line to have to burn, then cortisol is dumping a lot of glycogen and broken down glucose into the bloodstream. And then on top of that, they may be getting 25 3040 50% from their dietary fats. So I guess, throw

David Korsunsky:
some slow insufficient sleep in there. Right other things. Bad formula.

Dr. Joel Rosen:
Right. So I guess the question is, are you seeing this now where it’s putting a lot of fallouts in it that that whole theory into? How important is it I mean, certainly we want to control glucose, and you want to have low baseline levels. But it gives new credence to the fact that well, is there such a bad thing as a spike, as long as the insulin is bringing it back down, and the baselines are lower, versus not having a spike not showing that your body’s responding to that glucose to use it as fuel right away? So I guess the question is to you, are you seeing that now with your providers or your dashboard or your insight in terms of the evolution of is it so bad to have blood sugar spikes? I know that’s sort of a sidewinder on this, but I’m wondering, from your perspective, are you seeing that at all?

David Korsunsky:
Well, I think what we have now Dr. Joel, is we have a lot more practitioners who are getting CGM data from their patients. That again, keep in mind this is new, right? Previously, as a practitioner, you were lucky if you got a blood sugar reading when they came in your office for labs, part of the phlebotomy test, okay, what are you looking at one data point a year, okay, then you could have a glucometer at home, maybe you can get a few of those. But there was no good way to easily share that with a practitioner. Now you have a practitioner like yourself, who knows what to look for.

And you’re getting a continuous feed of data points 24/7 365. This is a whole new window into blood sugar. Right. So at some level, we’ve never had this level of visibility into a person’s glucose before. We never could sit there at the screen. I can pull it up right now. Go back three days and look at all the spikes in someone’s blood sugar. How high did it go? How fast did it come down?

And what’s the area under the curve? So in some respects, joy I think we’re still learning here. If you want my take on the matter. Like any answer? I’d say it depends. But if you have a your your blood sugar have a significant spike. I think I looked at my CGM data a few years ago, or sorry, a few days ago, and I broke 200. You know what I mean? It’s on a Dex calm. Another thing to keep in mind is that these sensors were calibrated for diabetic people. Okay, which I am not. And at least with the Dexcom sensor, they have a feature in the app where you can calibrate it to your glucometer. So when I put a new sensor on, and then I take a glucose reading, that could be 20, or 30 points different. So what you have to do is go into the dex comm app, take a blood sugar reading, use my Keto Mojo, and take my glucose reading.

And you have to do that two or three times with every new CGM sensor every single time to get it calibrated. Otherwise, that 200 SPIKE I could have hit when I tested with a glucometer could easily be 150. Okay, so that’s a very different treatment decision. Okay, so first of all, is the CGM even really the right number? That is another factor you have to counsel. So as practitioners, I think we have to make sure that we know that these are limitations, at least with currency gems, and also know that I should probably ask that person for a fingerstick reading. Next time that happens.

So there may be some variability in the sensors that we need to account for. But for me, personally, when I see it go sky-high, I’m not worried about it. I think our systems are designed for that. What I’d want to know is what did you eat? Was it french fries, and highly processed right? White bread and a soda? That’s just never good for you. But if it hit that same number, and it’s because I had some rice with like a steak, and some vegetables, and a glass of wine? Fine. I’m okay with that. What you want to look for is how fast it came back down to baseline. Right? If it spikes up and you’re back down to baseline within an hour, you know, your body’s cranking? You know what I mean? The system is working as designed. If you hit that, and then it’s still climbing 234 hours later, some people don’t go down until the next morning. Okay, that’s a problem.

Dr. Joel Rosen:
Yeah, that’s a great answer. So I think that I would argue that, again, like you said, to all the other things being in the mix as well, like a stressful marriage, you know, toxic home, financial stress, having an infection, mold, exposure, all those things as well. Yes, throw those indexes, right?

But if we’re controlling those or as much as you possibly can, I think that we have to request the idea of never spiking above 120, which a lot of, you know, influencers and health doc, even like renowned doctors are saying, which I don’t think is realistic, because if you’re eating, the quicker you convert food into energy, the less that can go wrong, the less oxidizable The less the like, the less that you can have a problem with So, but interesting that I like your take on that. So

David Korsunsky:
Joel is that like, okay, so I think Peter Thiel, right, he doesn’t like he sets his bar at 140. Right? I don’t want my people above 140. Okay, it’s probably a good, soft goal. But like, that doesn’t mean we’re a robot. That means that like, we still have the Joie de Vive, you know what I mean? It’s like, Hey, I’m going to go out. And I know, we’re going to have this delicious experience with loved ones. And I’m going to clock above 140, it’s just, that I’m going to enjoy being a human. So there’s that part of it.

And then the second part is like, well, even the 140 on index com. There are plus or minus 20 points there just due to the nature of the sensor, but in general, my take is it’s more important about how fast it comes down. It definitely, then how high it goes. Now there are upper limits, like Above 220 is a formal diet diabetes definition. Okay. Again, don’t use the CGM to make that determination. Use the glucometer. But if your CGM is showing you’re getting above that consistently after some meals, you need to start doing some postprandial testing with a glucometer. But for generally healthy people, I don’t, I don’t mind if it goes up high and comes back down.

And it’s also time-dependent, like if you just come out of a fast pretty much anything you’re going to eat is going to spike you high. Right? You know what I mean? So like, what are you fasting for? 24 hours, maybe you didn’t have a chance to eat lunch. You got busy. You were fine. Acid, what you ate on that day could make your glucose go higher than eating that same thing on a day when you’d already had a few meals. So, right Oh, man.

Dr. Joel Rosen:
Yeah, no, it’s great points on your part. I think the other Fallout is reevaluating the resistant starches that don’t have a spike of your glucose. But what ultimately happens is, that it can feed the microbes, and lipid polysaccharides develop.

And next thing you know, you have this whole release of cortisol and inflammatory mediators, because you were trying not to spike your glucose. And you have a consequence of that as well. But anyway, I appreciate your insight on that. As far as the biohackers dashboard, tell us a little bit more. Now we have the CGM, the glucose meters, and heart rate variability. What else does the person that well, actually even I’m sorry to be all over the place. But the next question I wanted to ask you was the definition of hack. What’s your feeling about that? I mean, because you know, you are, you’re you’re a computer guy.

And I somehow I’m not crazy about the definition, although or the term we use, right? So if, if you were to say, listen, we’re we’re Quantified Self, we want to know, like a computer, how we can get this running as effectively as possible. Everyone is unique. We want to extend lifespan healthspan quality, and quality of life experiences, is biohack the best term? Or what’s your sense of that?

David Korsunsky:
I like the word personally, I think it represents what we’re trying to do, which is we’re trying to find new backdoors performance hacks, things that most ordinary people are not paying attention to, or do not necessarily care about. So think about a hack into a computer system, what are you doing, when you hack into a computer system, you’re finding entry points that did not exist, you’re looking for backdoors, you’re looking for loopholes that can be exploited. For gain, you’re looking for ways to exploit the system for your benefit.

And these ways are not documented. You know what I mean, the company that makes the firewall, you know, you’re you’re, you’re finding ways to penetrate that system that are unknown, for your advantage. That’s hacking into any system, for that matter. So I think that’s where the word comes from.

And then we put the word biology in front of it, which just means we’re looking for ways to exploit the biological system instead of the computer system for our own game. So think of us like our, you know, the way you one way you hack a computer system is you start scanning all the ports on the computer system, you know, so you’ve got your servers in the cloud, and think of ports into your system, there are different doors you can open, right? So we you know, it’s very common, hackers will just be constantly port scanning your software in the Cloud, they’re looking for a door, you forgot to lock. Okay, so how can we start looking for the ports in the biological system?

Same concept. So I think that’s where the combination of the two words comes together. For me, it just means how can we constantly be looking for ways to exploit and optimize the system for our gain? You can call it longevity, you can call health optimization, we used to call it quantified self. Pick, pick whatever vernacular you’re comfortable with. Right? Just just working on your health man at the end of the day. Yeah, no.

Dr. Joel Rosen:
I like, again, today’s show is brought to you by CO charge the supercharged seal like this is the bottle that you can see right here. Each scoop delivers five grams, which is 5000 milligrams, it is a very pure, very concentrated micronized, cleaned, re-mineralized zeal like that we are talking to you about and if you’re looking to try this product, then I have the offer to get a 10% off discount link. Just use the code Dr. Joel 10, Dr. Joel 10.

And we will provide the link underneath the podcast wherever there is information and let’s get back to the podcast. Good, good answer. I think that sometimes it can imply shortcuts. Right? And I don’t think there ever are any shortcuts I mean, unless you I mean you got to do the work no matter what. But you want to find the quickest dot quickest, the shortest path to getting to where you want to get to so that being said, I’d be interested because I know you do your podcast and you have doctors on staff and they have their own I guess cohort, right where they put their patient base in there.

And then they do their unique studies. And I think even did something recently with spermidine now, or did you do something? HRV plus HRV? Plus Correct? Yeah. So what? What are some of the best practices? I guess that’s how you designed your biohackers dashboard. Or what are you seeing as some of the best practices in these cohorts or these studies, or these getting access to the ports that the doors aren’t locked to? What do you see as the best practices?

David Korsunsky:
There are so many out there and it’s changing so fast. And what’s happening is you have this also this technological explosion. So let’s take a few of some of the more interesting ones that I’m working on right now. Okay, which would be hyperbaric oxygen, infrared sauna, or cold plunge PEMF? That’s millions of dollars, not millions. But up until just a few years ago, right, the only hyperbaric oxygen chambers were at the hospital for people who had serious leg infections.

And insurance only covered it you know, for a tiny tiny subset of use cases turns out that bots are awesome for lots of things. But first of all the tank is 120k, and it won’t even fit in your house. So now just down the street from my house, I can go in there and I pay him 200 bucks a month. And they got everything I want unlimited, H BOD cold plunges. So these are brand new, what I will call ways to exploit the system. So I go in there I do my 30 minutes in the sauna. I do five minutes in the cold water and I do a P E and F. I will see my aura HRV close to double on those nights. Those technologies were not accessible to us the masses just a couple of years ago. There are all these recovery lounges popping up where you can go get access, I’m sure they haven’t done it; they’re in Boca. But like here in Scottsdale, you go in, it’s in a little strip mall. It’s not even a big expensive place, but they just got all the right gear. So you’re asking me what are some of the top ones that we’re seeing out there? Right now we’re seeing a lot of these recovery modalities.

And here’s why I like these places. We’re in such a hyperstimulated world. We work ourselves like crazy. We’ve got our family obligations, our financial obligations we’re bombarded with, with all the stress of the media. I like these recovery hacks. You’re asking me which ones I like right now and which ones we’re seeing a lot of, in the market in the industry.

And we’re seeing more of these places you can go these are dedicated spaces. It’s like the spa, but with all these new health optimization technologies. So we’re starting to see more of these clinics come to us.

And they’re saying, Hey, we have all these expensive machines. We want to show people that it’s working. So can we use your software Dave to help us with that? So now we can show people efficacy from doing things like sauna and cryotherapy. So inside one of these recovery lounges, I’m going this afternoon, it’s Friday. I’ve been busting ass all week, I blocked two hours on my calendar to go and do recovery work. I’m gonna go do the sauna I might do two sessions and my two to plunge contrast therapy. But I’m creating space in my life. to specifically go and work on recovering my body. You don’t have to, you know, I do meditation. I do all that stuff. So I think we’re seeing a lot of those.

And these clinics are starting to do quite well. financially. There are a lot of people coming in there, and the stuff becoming more mainstream. I was the only one cold plunging. In the pool here in Phoenix in the middle of winter when it was unheated five or six years ago. My dad and I, we’d go into the we don’t heat the pool in the winter and it would get down to the 40s. And we’d go sit in the shallow end for five minutes in the middle of winter. You know now it’s like it’s accessible to everybody now it’s becoming mainstream. I love these recovery hacks jokes to answer your question specifically, we’re seeing a lot of those. The businesses are doing well. They’re expanding they’re they’re having more franchises and more equipment in there. So those are the ones I’m kind of needing out on right now.

Dr. Joel Rosen:
Yeah, thank you. So when you’re when they want to show efficacy, what are the biomarkers that can be on the dashboard that would show efficacy? See that? It’s working?

David Korsunsky:
Great question. So these are more what I would call they’re, they’re going to generate an acute response quickly. You know, I mean they can compound over time. But what would you look for? First of all, you’d look at your heart rate variability, which is arguably becoming the single most predictive biomarker and the easiest to measure that we know of.

Dr. Joel Rosen:
Right? And just sort of is that is that like, What’s your most people by now that are going to be listening to this podcast don’t need to be explained what heart rate variability is, but, um, there’s so many different ways to measure it. What are your, you know, along with the different biomarkers that show of efficacy? What, do you see are the different ways that they can measure the heart rate variability besides the aura ring,

David Korsunsky:
or anything that measures it while you’re sleeping is the easiest, because you just wear it, and you get the number in the morning before those come out, we do it with like a polar chest strap, you know, you’d connect it to an app like elite HRV. And it would count for five minutes in the morning. So you could do it that way.

And then there’s a more clinical grade, what ways to measure HRV, where you’re going into a lab with a more expensive set of diagnostic equipment, that’s able to measure like the low frequency, the high frequency, they can get much more detailed. But for the average Joe, any, any most of the wearables out there will do a pretty good job. And you’ll start to get some good feedback if what you’re doing is having a positive effect. It’s like a scale in the bathroom. I have two in my bathroom because they’re both wireless.

And I need to make sure they both work with heads up. So every morning I step on both one tells me my body fat is 13.8% of the winnings. And the Tonita says I’m 23.8% How can I end up using the same bioimpedance through my feet to measure it? So which one is right? Turns out to to need closer to a DEXA scan. But it doesn’t matter because both of them will go up or down accurately depending on what I’m doing. So even if they’re not like super accurate to like the gold standard, it’s gonna go up or down enough to tell you if you’re doing the right things or not. So those are the ways to measure. So HRV would be one, the resting heart rate nocturnally. That’s another good recovery metric. A lot of sports teams on our system are not only looking at HRV, but they’re also looking at resting heart rate which tells them if the body has recovered well enough.

And also, not just how low did it go, but when in the sleep cycle. So commonly look at HRV and resting heart rate together. So if you do some healthy therapies, and you don’t need a late meal, and you do some breathwork before bed, I’ll look at my resting heart rate. I’ll look at the sleep stages, you know, there’s some debate about this concept of deep and REM and how accurate but on days where I feel I slept well, I can see that that number reported by aura or your wearable of choice, that will be one. Another good indicator of recovery is blood pressure in the morning.

And what you’ll see is that on nights where you had a really good sleep, as reported by your sensor, your blood pressure is going to be lower. Conversely, if you didn’t have a great sleep, you’re out having a few drinks, whatever had a late meal worked out too late, you wake up, you’re not as fresh, and your blood pressure is going to be higher. So that’s pretty consistent. So blood pressure, that’d be another one fasting glucose. What’s my blood sugar in the morning before I have my coffee or do anything? Another good indicator? Those would be like some of the acute ones that I’m looking at regularly. Also, respiratory rate is another good one, which again, these wearables how many times a minute. Were you breathing? That’s another good one for recovery. So those are the ones I’ll be looking at when I’m doing those therapies.

And when a clinic comes to us. And they’re like, hey, we want to show efficacy, that those will be some of my answers. I would tell them to include the device as part of your program. Just make sure everybody has it. And then you start to show them how to use the technology. Because there are no real established protocols in this whole world yet. You know, half these recovery clinics don’t even do a little of this and all that and whatever. You know, there’s no, there’s no standards out there. You know what I mean? So, some of this, we just kind of figure out on our own. No,

Dr. Joel Rosen:
that’s great. I think the importance of recovery can’t be overstated, right? That Is the marker of if I’m under stress, and I don’t feel that I have energy for the day, and I’m not as focused. I want to know, compared to my markers.

Are these markers improving, showing that I’m getting closer to up to a baseline or continually improving my baselines? Curious to know, Dave, because I know you can integrate all these fancy schmancy testing as well from precision and Dutch test and gi map and organic acid and Genova and all these other things and just even bloodwork is that, do you see that getting phased out to a certain extent? Or is that still really important? What I liked about the heads-up health is you have, and you talked about this a while ago, where you’d be seeing different doctors and no doctors ever had your stats, and you had to find them yourself.

And then you wanted to put it on a graph to look at these markers. But I guess the question is, where does that fit in? As we’re moving towards more digital, real-time information? Where do you see that fitting in? And how is that integrated into the dashboard? Well,

David Korsunsky:
the way we look at it, Joel, the dashboard in our system is meant to give you that acute feedback, the stuff that’s changing by the day, or sometimes even by a minute,

Dr. Joel Rosen:
and that’s new, right for a heads up the cute feedback, because that’s just

David Korsunsky:
what we call the dashboard. It’s like, hey, the dashboards, my HRV my way, but we also have a section where you measure the labs, okay? Because the whole concept is if my, my, my cute numbers are getting better, I’m paying attention. I’m sleeping more, I’m controlling my glucose, then when you look at your lab data, that information gets better.

And those start to become the long-term indicators of health. So like, Hey, I got a CGM or I got a glucometer. I’m controlling my blood sugar. I’m learning how this food affects my blood sugar differently than this other food and making better choices. Right? That’s cute. Then you get your blood test run and your hemoglobin one C goes from 6.5 to 4.9k. That’s the lab data that we track in our system as well. That’s the money, then you want to say okay, well, I’m 4.9. I’ve been doing well for three months. Well, what was I 10 years ago? Oh, I don’t know, I think I was living in Boston, and some records somewhere that I can’t even access anymore. So what we want to do is not just help you get to 4.9 right now.

Okay, that’s good. But can you stay below five for 20 years? That’s, that’s now getting to longevity? Anybody can get healthy for a few months and get that number down at once. Can you keep it there for 20 years? Do you even know what your readings were? So that’s why the other part is tracking the lab. So I don’t think that’s ever going to go away. As it pertains to the more specialized functional diagnostic labs, like urine and stool, microbiome, and things of that nature. Those are left to the experts who know how to interpret that data. And they’re going to add an order that tests for a reason.

Typically, they’re looking for something. So we also want to make sure that information can get incorporated into our system as well. Because what do you get from those labs? A pdf file? Oh, where’s the PDF file? Oh, I think Dr. Rosen might have it. I saw him five years ago, but maybe it’s on the hard drive on my laptop that died because I spilled water on it. You know, this is like, so how do you get this data together? It’s, we want to have an experience above ground. That’s awesome. So like, we need this data. So we integrate it all. We don’t care if you’re a practitioner, and you’re running this panel, or your user will put it into the system and trend it for you. And then as to what tests get run by whom, you know, that’s really up to the practitioners.

Dr. Joel Rosen:
Yeah, but it’s a good point, Dave, in terms of it’s heading towards more real-time feedback, right? And I think because so many people are frustrated where they’ve, they have the practitioner exhaustion right there, they’ve spent so much money in different areas.

And you know, at the end of the day, they’re told that there’s their blood tests are normal, or they have this or that but it’s not giving them real-time feedback on how are your audit. How’s your autonomic nervous system doing? How are you cooling down? are you slowing down? Are you or do you know, if your blood pressure working hard? Are you are you so I like that idea. I do think it’s important though, to have those long term. numbers going into the short-term numbers meaning if I look at your, your those long-term numbers, and I see that there’s an Hamato, poetic issue, meaning you’re not, you’re not respiring at the cellular level, because your red blood cells, your iron, your, the way that those markers indicate how that’s doing is challenged, or you have some electrolyte imbalances, or your cardiovascular profiles aren’t point on point, or whatever, then we can address those things simultaneously. That, in turn, will help the acute day-to-day stuff, but also tracking and being aware and doing these recovery strategies for the acute day-to-day stuff will improve as well. Because I would imagine at some level, are you getting feedback where you have to refer some of the individual people that are looking at these numbers, and they have these wearables, and they are doing these recovery things?

And they’re their heart rate variability is just always crap. It’s never really great. And they don’t know what’s going on. So is that something that heads up health? Helps I know, education is a big thing for your users. Is that something that is part of, your philosophy, and your mission is to help educate them to integrate, those numbers, not just from an acute standpoint, but how to make them work together? Nicely? Yeah,

David Korsunsky:
well, I think what we’ve tried to do is, first of all, it’s a multipart problem. At the end of the day, what we really, there’s only so far we’re gonna go, because we’re just a technology company. So what we want to help you do is at least get all of your information into one system of record. And then you can start analyzing it. And working with practitioners and stuff like that, we’ve built the system in a way that you can make those small day-to-day micro changes, and then see the results in your longer-term bloodwork as well, and then also potentially see it in these longevity tests, which is what I talked about it at the conference, which are we now have ways to assess our rate of aging.

And that can be reversed just like you can lower your hemoglobin a one C, you can lower your rate of aging. So that’s the feedback loop we want to create inside of our system. That’s the thesis of how the system was built, what our system is not going to do is, is tell you what to do, or tell you how to necessarily interpret the data will will show you the trendline you will have to interpret whether that trendline is good or bad for you, because it’s going to be different, or your practitioner will be on the other end, interpreting the trendline for you. So they’re gonna give you your protocol. So we’re kind of like presenting the facts. And then we empower the practitioners to look at the facts and help you come up with a protocol. I will say though, Joe, give me one second, I’m just going to close my door, here’s some noise.

David Korsunsky:
I will say though, Joe, that there’s there’s there’s more things that are now starting to be collected at home passively, which is exciting, you gave this example of practitioner fatigue, and they all want to rerun the labs, and the panels and, and maybe at some point, there’s just more I can start doing on my own. But you can get overwhelmed on your own. The last thing we want is people consulting Dr. Google for interpretation, this lab did. But some people are like, You know what, I am going to do some research on my own first or now. So it’s not far off, I have a test kit in my kitchen here and I just put a drop of blood on a spot card and send it in the mail. And they run lab tests for me. So you know, there’s more of that at-home stuff coming that we can do on our own and then we can go do a little more on research, consult with someone here consult with someone there. So there’s more of the self-directed stuff coming where we can do more testing at home.

Dr. Joel Rosen:
Right but you know, ultimately, it’s it’s a consequence of you going to these conferences, presenting the information staying putting it having your finger on the pulse of what’s coming down the pike, and knowing you know, knowing how you can best serve your end user but not playing doctor you know, in the process. But good segue into the rate of aging and I liked those tests and DNA methylation and now they’ve added the ability to look at these exercise markers right like force exploratory volume and hand grip strength and VO two and so maybe, I mean, is that being integrated and that’s just being housed in your software or how what’s your

David Korsunsky:
Yeah, we spoke with a group Last week, and they’re like, every single person that comes in our program, there’s a grip strength test. We want to trend it, we want to know your grip strength now, grip strength story. And we want to have that on the dashboard. And we want to check it again and for 1218 2436 months, we want to see that trend line going up. VO two Max same kind of thing. So these practitioners are coming to us. And they’re saying, Hey, we’ve been measuring all this stuff for decades, we’ve never had one dashboard where I can show people, their HRV their grip strength, their vo two Max their waist circumference. And there are lots and lots and lots of really well-done studies that directly correlate these two longevity. So and then can you also on that dashboard put their biological age. Now it’s getting fun. Now it’s just gamified.

Dr. Joel Rosen:
But it’s cool. I mean, I think that the more you keep it basic, right, and like knowing that your waist, your hip-to-waist ratio, and knowing that your strength of how much you can squeeze something or how much you can breathe out at one forced breath can be that much more insightful than having a $1,500 test to look at your bloodwork that you’re only going to be told that there is nothing wrong or you need to be put on a statin right. I mean, it’s, it’s crazy. It’s

David Korsunsky:
good to have the bloodwork you know that you can go look in your toilet bowl, and you’ll get great biomarkers just from urine and stool. They don’t cost anything, you don’t have to buy a sensor, and there are no expensive lab tests, Bristol score, and the color of the urine. You know those two things right there, you can self-calibrate pretty effectively with

Dr. Joel Rosen:
curious to know, as far as one of the things that I do with the patients I work with is I have them do some different diet variations and macro changes. And it’s hard to extrapolate the impact that’s having in real time if it takes some timing to change those things and see what it’s coming out. But as far as, oh, geez, I lost my whole train of thought on that question. What was I gonna say about that? Darn it, I forgot what I was gonna say. It was gonna be a good question. I

David Korsunsky:
like how do you how do you measure stuff when a protocol, it’s not going to kick in for three to six months, you know what I mean? Like, like, some of the stuff doesn’t happen overnight. A supplement is not going to improve your vitamin D after two doses. You know what I mean? So like you, there are things that just have to be looked at longitudinally over time. And I think that’s where the bloodwork can be helpful. Just a simple vitamin D level. Great example.

Dr. Joel Rosen:
Right now, actually. So I remember now. So as far as, because you can’t suss that out right away over time. I think you have insights or trends, I forget what it’s called. But can you put subjective stuff, let’s say, you know, I want to know my cognitive health, which I don’t feel as on point all the time, I don’t feel like I have energy all the time? I don’t feel like my motivation or libido might be there. And my GI discomfort. So those say four markers, you can put on a 10 scale, and give yourself just sort of a visual analog score. Is that being incorporated as well or console? Is that encouraged? Or, you know, marking those subjective feedbacks that can be just as insightful as objective stuff as well?

David Korsunsky:
Yeah, so on the dashboard, we have a lot of practitioners that will put some metrics there for you to self-report those things. So the practitioner may assign a dashboard to their client, Joel, which has a grip strength feel to max HRV, but also, libido, one to 10, energy levels, one to 10 mood, one to 10. And you can self-report those things, subjective symptoms, migraine severity, all of those types of things are reportable. If you’re working with a condition where those are a problem, what you’re trying to do is figure out the triggers.

So okay, if I can, if I can track my migraine severity, then I can go back and look at those times when I had a severe migraine, and figure out what the heck was going on. At that time. Oh, man, it turns out that like, those are correlated with when I have a certain meal, for example. Oh, okay. So maybe there’s a metabolic component to this migraine. Or like another example. I noticed that this is something I’ve been working on recently. Like If I was noticing my nocturnal HRV at home was lower than when I was sleeping at a hotel at a conference. I’m like, Well, man, I’m not in my comfy bed. I can’t get it as cold as I like, and I have my chili pad. Why is it higher in the hotel than at my home?

So you measure it for a while, right, just like the migraine severity. And the correlation might not jump off the page right away, you might have to try some different stuff. You know, for me, it turns out it was EMFs in my bedroom. So it took me a long time, I had to eliminate 10 or 11 other things, which I suspected, were not the case, before I got to the one that caused it. So that’s where you can track the symptoms and then try to reverse engineering.

Dr. Joel Rosen:
Yeah, that’s that’s a good point. So there’s that can get complicated quite quickly, right? If you have all these data points, and you’re tracking each one and you want to suss out those, those covert relationships? How does Heads Up Health help you do that? Well, first,

David Korsunsky:
you’ll, you’ll have the other data points that you’re looking for. Again, that still may not give you the smoking gun, like we can regression

Dr. Joel Rosen:
analysis, though, weren’t you like you can do some of those. That stuff? Yeah,

David Korsunsky:
not Yeah, we’re not at that level of sophistication yet. But you could imagine a future version where it could say, Excuse me, what are you working on with your health? And you’re saying migraine severity. And you just have to start reporting that every day. And we’re getting a lot of other data feeds coming from your sensors, we could probably start to figure that out at some point, especially with AI. Because with AI, once you see the pattern with one person, then we can go look at that same data pattern.

And instantly scan everyone for that same pattern. Let me give an example. So we found that people with this particular genetic snip, mutation, when their blood I’m making this up, but you’ll, you’ll get the idea. People who have that snip, and hemoglobin a one C above this. And when they go to bed at night, their blood sugar is above 150. You know, the next morning, they report a migraine? That’s like four or five variables right there. But somebody figured it out. Right, some research paper published it, right? You know, weak AI can then go find that in anybody instantly and automatically cross trillions of data points in seconds. You just have to tell it what to look for.

You know, so you could see us getting to that point, we’re not there yet. That’s, that’s part of the longer-term aspiration. That’s where you can do some cool stuff. How many times Joe? Have you looked at someone’s genomics? And looked at their results? And you know, exactly what’s going on with them and exactly how to treat them. But what percentage of the population could even afford the ope? And the test? How could we scan all of those people automatically, and find it for them instantly? Most practitioners don’t even know what to look for, even if you give them the test results. Right? So how do you now democratize that? How many people are in mental institutions and incarcerated? Because they have a treatable MTHFR mutation? You know what I mean? That’s the stuff where I see that massive potential. Now,

Dr. Joel Rosen:
that’s cool. And I’m glad we’re talking about this, especially from a data repository like yourself, where there’s the potential for age reversal and lifespan, the, you know, the DNA company that I use, what’s cool about it is, I think that now they have with all the doctors that upload their patients, or raw data to there’s probably 60,000 people in there. And what’s cool about the program, Dave is you can see, let’s say I’m looking at your DNA, and I’m looking at these different sections of iron metabolism and histamine and glutamate and antioxidant response elements, even NAD and glutathione.

And I could see based on your snips, where you compare to the rest of the database, yeah, cool, right. Yeah. And the rest of the database is somewhat skewed right, because they’re not the Olympic athletes of the world. You’re comparing all the sick, people who are seeing me seeking my help that are seeking all those other doctors’ help so if you’re an outlier to the outliers, it must be a real challenge, and it can help the doctor understand where some of the weak links in the chain may break to deliver better outcomes. So is Heads Up Health doing that as well? Or is there some concern with it? Well, I don’t want I mean, with people that aren’t aware and might be ignorant that I don’t want them sharing my data, and this that the other, but those heads up health can run AI to see trends to help deliver quicker, better outcomes,

David Korsunsky:
we’re starting to build some of those first commercial examples. So like with a lot of our sports teams, they need us to run an algorithm that looks at training load, resting heart rate, and HRV. They need to do this every day for hundreds of people and look for very specific things in data that they would have to do manually, I got to get these three data points, I got to log it to three separate systems, put all three data points in a spreadsheet, do that for 50. Athletes, and then build the logic into the spreadsheet to find these, these if these patterns in the data, you know, so that type of stuff we can automate. We’re not yet doing a lot with AI or any type of predictive analytics or anything like that, but even with your genetics example, you already illustrated, it’s the same with these longevity tests, right? They’re just looking at you relative to a cohort of people your age, in many cases, well, they’re looking at your results. But then they’re saying, well, for other people, your results are closer to the cohort, 10 years younger than you, right?

And the only way you get to cohorts is people putting in the data. The way to ethically use the data is to be very clear in your terms of service with people about how you’re going to use the data. And you should use it in a way that is internal only for your system and is de-identified. So I may take your data and anonymize it, but put you in the cohort of 40 to 50-year-old males so that I can show you like you said, what, how do you compare to the other people in the lab? That’s how we’re learning. That’s also the potential in these companies because you have all this other data that was typically in the hospital’s EHR, right, they may not be mining it for cohort analysis, they’re just using it for patient care inside the system. You know, these companies in the wellness side of things, they’re taking those 10s of 1000s millions of data points, and they’re helping us learn and build better protocols and show you where you stack up. So I think it’s overall a net win for health care. Yeah.

Dr. Joel Rosen:
And it’s important to have the outcomes to baseline things to write I mean, you can’t just have these stats without any quality, or quantity, you know, qualifying the information, meaning, how sick were these people that had these numbers? How healthy were the people who had these numbers? What was their lifespan, you know, you know, morbidity, stuff like that, but it’s cool the direction that it’s headed. As far as any other cool stuff that we left out so far. Dave? I mean, you’ve been a wealth of information? Um,

David Korsunsky:
no, I think we, we covered a lot of really like, of the more prominent parts of what we’re seeing in healthcare right now, a lot of these recovery modalities, a lot of good ways to measure things, just some, some good practical examples on how to use data and also how not to use data. And also just some really good discussion about where things are headed. And what’s the potential, there should be no reason why we cannot substantially increase the overall lifespan. At this point, our diagnostic capabilities are better.

We have more access to diagnostics than we’ve ever had. We have access to the best health optimization gear in the world stuff that LeBron James could afford in his house. I can walk down the street and do the same thing now. For pennies on the dollar. I can buy the best supplements from the best company that researches the extract from the tree in this obscure nation that’s like a longevity super compound that could order on Amazon and have it delivered the same day. You know what I mean? So like, we have every tool we should possibly need at this point in the game to improve the lifespan. We’re just putting all these protocols together and figuring it all out. Yeah.

Dr. Joel Rosen:
You said something interesting in terms of the democratization of everything, which is great, right? Open Access, having access to this, but I guess it begs the question, How are third parties, insurance, insurance providers, insurance companies, Big Pharma? You know, allopathic medicine, how do you see them at risk? Evening, the way we’re headed digging their heels in or using the Akito, working with the momentum, like what’s your thought on that you’ve met with opposition, or it’s being embraced or somewhere in between.

David Korsunsky:
Typically, they don’t seem to be opposed to it, they just, can’t advise you on that stuff. Because it’s just not the way they’re trained. So typically here, they’re like, Okay, you can do that, that’s not my domain, you know, in that system, it’s, it’s more of what I would call acute care. And we need that system. Don’t get me wrong, the acute care system has saved the lives of many of my family members many times over, when I can, you know, drive my dad to the ER, and he’s being triaged by the best doctors in the world in under three minutes. But the best diagnostic equipment we have in the world. So like we need that, are they going to work with him on some of these more wellness or lifestyle-based programs, that’s just not how their system works. So I think what’s becoming more common, Joel, is for people to have two types of health care, they have their insurance medicine, then they have their concierge medicine.

And the latter one you pay out of pocket for a fine. You know, there’s, there’s different ways you can buy a practitioner or one-off visits or, or you can buy a membership where you just get direct access. And so I think we’re moving to this model where you’ll have your lifestyle, doctor, and you’ll have your acute doctor, and they don’t necessarily need to get in bed together, unless there’s a serious problem, in which case, they’re probably going to want to coordinate.

And as long as they’re respectful of each other, and they coordinate properly. It’s probably overall, a net win, we’re not seeing a lot of resistance from the conventional system. I think, if anything, we’ll probably over the next 10 years start to see them adopt more of this technology. Because what are they interested in keeping people out of the hospitals, and being able to treat as many people as possible as cost-effectively and efficiently as possible? So how do you do that? Well, you have to start getting all this stuff we’re doing, you know, to fit into those cost models.

And so it’s got to move from this fee-for-service model, which is kind of like how it is now the doctor gets paid every time they see you for a thing, it’s got to move more to this risk-adjusted model, then there’s an incentive for them to put you in an infrared sauna and covered under insurance. You know, that’s I think we’re where it could come together and get exciting, is when those worlds come together a

Dr. Joel Rosen:
bit of a bit of way, though, right? You

David Korsunsky:
would say 10 years away from that and the best-case scenario,

Dr. Joel Rosen:
right? Because I think when we were talking initially several years ago, that was sort of part of your, you’re, I guess, the business approach is seeing if you can get third parties interested has that been something that hasn’t been just sort of realized, okay, that’s not our user right now. Or

David Korsunsky:
we do it like when we work with practices inside of the acute care system. They’re not using our system to help someone optimize for longevity. They’re doing, they’re using our system to do remote patient monitoring, which means I have someone with severe hypertension, severe type two diabetes, and severe obesity, they need these technologies to monitor the patients in the home and transmit the data points back to the doctor.

So there are very specific conditions where doctors can bill insurance for using a CGM. So like type one diabetes, for example, the doctor could get billed for monitoring that data every month for someone with high blood pressure if the patient’s at home measuring their blood pressure, you know, like with a Withings blood pressure cuff, the doctor is can bill insurance for that. But it’s a very narrow definition of conditions. And it’s mainly based on reducing readmissions and making treatment decisions. Those are the use cases for us today heads up in the allopathic system.

Dr. Joel Rosen:
Right. Gotcha. And it’s when they do that, it’s just more of like housing, the stats and then making the treatment decisions but not necessarily doing connections with things or being able to improve long Joe, it’s just more acute based focused. Oh,

David Korsunsky:
there are care coordinators, and there are and there aren’t coordinators that might reach out to you in like a coaching capacity. Hey, Joe, we noticed your blood pressure has been a lot higher this week. Is everything going? Okay? You know what I mean? It’s starting.

Dr. Joel Rosen:
That’s cool. So I know you’re big into into mindfulness. And so I guess on parting here, I usually asked my guests What do you wish you would have known then that you know now that would have helped your your, age reversing goals? But what would you say is your best mindfulness hack? Because you’ve gone down that rabbit hole pretty, pretty good, haven’t you?

David Korsunsky:
I think psychospiritual health in general, is epidemic in this country right now. It’s not talked about, we don’t have good medications or tools for it. So I think the mental health part of it, the psycho-spiritual health part of it. And just spirituality in general, I think is probably something that doesn’t get enough attention in all of the talk about healthcare, in my opinion.

Dr. Joel Rosen:
And you see, as far as your recovery numbers go, the more or less you do that, the more or less it’s impacted and plays a big part in your scores. Dave?

David Korsunsky:
Well, one of the last slides I showed y’all was that Yogi’s were the original biohackers How did they biohack they just use breath. You know, have you read the James Nestor book? Yeah. So like they’re not doing cryo. They’re not they don’t need a CGM. They know how to do self-mastery through birth control. introspection. They’re the original biohackers. And guess what? You look at those yogis, they live to 95 and die peacefully in their sleep. You know what I mean? Not everyone I shouldn’t make generalizations like that. But their mental state of mind. Their inner game, their spirituality is so strong, that that’s driving their lifeforce. In the in the meditative world. There’s this concept of prana or the Buddhist world prana or breath. In the Chinese traditions, it’s called Chi. But it’s working with your life force.

And how do you optimize your lifeforce, your chi or prana it’s the type of food you eat. You know, that’s why a yogic diet is very important. The yogic diet, they’re looking at fruits and vegetables, and organic ethically, and sustainably. They take great pride in choosing food, where it comes from, who grew it, and how it grew. They get it at the farmers market right to the source, because that food is bringing in your prana your lifeforce the air.

And that’s another thing. So how do we breathe even affects the source of our life, our vitality, sunshine, you know what I mean? Like, are we even getting sunshine, it’s been vilified, as cancer-causing. Some people have different skin tones that need to be sensitive, but they like getting plenty of sunshine. So those are the things that are interesting to me, in what I would call more of the metaphysical side of things. That’s

Dr. Joel Rosen:
awesome. No good stuff. So I’m listening to this. I want to be able to try this out myself, or some practitioners may want to add this to their services to their patients that they work with, what can they do to start to use their information?

David Korsunsky:
Yeah, thank you, Joel. So our company’s heads up, and wide, heads up health.com. And through there, if you’re an individual, you can sign up for a 30-day trial, you can start measuring some things, and get some of your data in there and start to see if this is something for you.

Not everybody wants to measure their health, I get that not just like, not everybody meticulously tracks, their finances, but whatever. If you want to start tracking, you can start using it as an individual. As practitioners, we help you use this to optimize the well-being of your clients, you can also just create an account, and use it with up to three people, no charge unlimited forever.

And then if you just have questions, you can email support at Heads up health.com on pretty much anything we talked about here today. My team will alert me if there’s a question for me just make it specific to me, and send it off, and we’ll process it for you. But Joe, our contribution to how we want to be of service is to make the tools to measure that this is working for people so that that’s our company’s mission is to make health measurable. So that’s what we work on and bleed on. And that’s, that’s heads up. And

Dr. Joel Rosen:
just curious. Thank you for that. And as far as just for complete disclosure, let’s say after the 30 days as an individual what what are what are they looking at after that?

David Korsunsky:
$9 and Once the subscription,

Dr. Joel Rosen:
right I mean less than $9? Or can they pay for a year and save even? Yeah, certainly

David Korsunsky:
not a year 79 For the year, right?

Dr. Joel Rosen:
And I think just for the fact of being able to have all the different blood tests that you’ve done over the years, and you don’t have to log into LabCorp, and quest, and then be no feeling like you’re annoying, this doctor that has your stuff, just get it all and put it in a place and then somehow organize it just with that alone. For $9 A month seems like a deal in my mind.

David Korsunsky:
Yeah, it’s your financial data and your health data. You know, those are the ones that you have to monitor over the long run to stay on top of things. There are probably oscillations in there wouldn’t be a separate conversation.

Dr. Joel Rosen:
Well, listen, I mean, I appreciate your help and your time, Dave, always good to talk to you. It’s amazing to have like a conversation where we’re not ribbing each other and to hear how smart you are

David Korsunsky:
so refreshing that we can be professionals, Joel, because usually it’s it’s you and I text messaging each other with just asinine jokes, making fun of each other, humiliating each other, whatever we can think of at the time.

Dr. Joel Rosen:
That’s right. That’s right. No, it’s awesome. I appreciate your time, Dave, and I look forward to hearing about the progression as we move forward here. So thank you so much.

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